For JasonKC

June 30, 2009

None of the rest of you will have a single clue what I am talking about so don’t ask.

I completely understand what is being said….and here is what I take from it. If I am wrong…feel free to comment as I love the debate we’re currently having.

I have several gay friends as well. I don’t believe they should be legally recognized as married partners. If you take government out of it and marriage is something that two people do in a church and 2 gay people find a church willing to do it….more power to them. Government should not tell me I have to recognize that marriage. Same as if they don’t wish to recognize mine.

Abortion? Stem cell? Thats a different story. Libertarians are not for no laws whatsoever. We are not anarchists. I think murder is wrong and should be punished with incarceration. I think if you are messed up in the head and kill someone…you’re still a murderer. Therefore….since I know babies are human….government….doctors….no one…should have the right to kill an innocent human.

Not if neither one of these ideals align with the mainstream libertarian ideals….well then, I will be a normal person. Before this year…I was a Republican. But I no longer associate with those ideals. They are straying too far left. There are Christian Liberals….there are atheist Republicans….there are all kinds in all places. If my beliefs align MAINLY with one of the parties…then I consider myself a part of that party. Not everyone is going to agree. It would be impossible. If the Libertarians don’t want me…and I don’t want the Republicans….I’ll still be a Christian Conservative…and speak up for things I think are good, moral and right. You understand what I mean?



  1. “If you take government out of it and marriage is something that two people do in a church and 2 gay people find a church willing to do it….more power to them. Government should not tell me I have to recognize that marriage. Same as if they don’t wish to recognize mine. ”

    Maybe this is my atheistic beliefs, marriage means nothing to me, personally, the government being involved at all is a mystery to me. I’m lost where anyone has to recognize any marriage.. Marriage to me, is a contract between two people and beyond those two people, it’s none of their business. Kind of like being business partners, but the business is life. I’m not aware of any friends of mine who are gay, but that’s not my issue.. it’s the government meddling in private contracts, and on this issue, which is love, is totally befuddling to me.

    Abortion.. well this is a touchy subject, but I have to defer my opinion, I’m a man, and I don’t have children.. I haven’t given this issue much thought, but back to my libertarian beliefs, I don’t see where the government gets involved. I believe you hammered my own point home with marriage in church, if a person wants to get an abortion, and finds a doctor willing, it’s none of my business. When you start talking pro-life, even as an Atheist, I also agree, unborn children have rights, and that seems like a totally indefensible position, because Pro-Life is so correlated with religious movements. This is an important debate, and I go back to the beginning, I’m probably not the best to argue either side or get involved…

    Stem cell research… this comes back to my atheist beliefs. I will give George W. Bush credit on this, and I think Glenn Beck is where I got this idea, that adult stem cells have proven more useful than stem cells, circumventing the entire debate altogether. From my research of this entire situation, it appears George W. Bush only banned federal funds from going to this research, but not dictating private sector researchers from getting involved, which I totally agree with as well.

    Now I have more room, maybe I can properly lay out my beliefs, and properly explain this… (great time to say it) We’re lucky to be in the USA where these debates can happen..

    When constructing the Bill of Rights, I actually took the other side of the argument, that they should have never been written and ratified. This sounds like blasphemy to everyone today, but that debate was extremely important and has been all but lost today.

    Some strongly believed the Bill of Rights weren’t necessary, and by simply including them, it opens the door for the government to restrict everything that wasn’t expressly included as a Right in that vital document.

    Working under the confines of the Bill of Rights today, I can see how their argument was true, and because I believe in that argument, I’m really singled out as insane because I believe in a utopian government, which I mistakenly took as where I lived, and this is all that’s needed to sum it up:

    In a truely free society, everyone is free to pursue whatever dream they want, as long as it doesn’t hinder someone else’s pursuit of their own dreams.

    This is where the disconnect is today, I believe. Advertising freedom, we’ve attracted all walks of life, immigrants from all over the world, with all different belief systems and ideas of happiness, but if you read my prior paragraph, there isn’t one sane person who doesn’t agree with that.

    Since we’ve got this large melting pot, beyond that simple statement, you will find variations in almost everyone, and it’s impossible to satisfy everyone, but I don’t see the need to micromanage beyond that simple statement, and all we’re seeing today is the back and forth, the playing of laws where it’s not needed, because the pursuit of happiness doesn’t need to be supplied or detracted from, by the government, and that is all laws are, whether you agree with them or not–of course this doesn’t include murder, robbery… things of that nature..

    I know I’m trying to make a simple statement to end debates on a vast range of subjects, but it’s where everyone agrees, and it’s the starting point.

    • Ok….from my vantage point…we agree on marriage. If you take the legal union out of it…and its a contract…I don’t have to recognize theirs…they don’t have to recognize mine. Correct? We are cool on that one?

      Abortion…well its the age old murder not murder deal. I think its murder…some don’t. I personally don’t care what they think….I think any rationalization of murdering a child is just that. A rationalization. Anyways…I digress. I think it should fall under that one statement you said of not including murder…robbery and things of that nature. Personal opinion.

      Stem Cell Research. Adults can consent to it. Babies can not. If unborn children had people representing them like adults do…could enter into a legal document consenting to their cells being used…then cool. But they cannot…and are not seen as human…which I addressed in my previous paragraph.

      Ok….let me sum up Jen in one simple paragraph. What I believe:

      1. You don’t believe in my God…I don’t care. Don’t tell me I have to believe in yours…don’t tell me I have to believe in environmentalism, so on and so forth. If I want to blare Jesus Loves Me at a public event…I should. If someone else wants to blare Satan Loves me at the same public event…I would get up and not listen…just like they could have during my song.

      2. Humans are humans. Plants are plants. Animals are animals. The first group is allowed to kill the other two but not each other. If you don’t want to kill the other two…don’t. But I will. Don’t stop me.

      3. Government has three purposes in my opinion. Keep us safe with the military. Not for de-banding the military. Not with everyone running around with nukes. If someone breaks a law…the Government should put them in jail…and kill them if they are killers. And last but not least….do some minor help in keeping roads safe, make sure no business is actually doing illegal trading of humans for sex or anything…that kind of policing and renovations. You understand. Now as far as the rest of it…I am seriously still contemplating most of it. Abolish the IRS, the Federal Reserve, the Post Office, Welfare, Social Security…those things. We don’t need them. You fail you fail. You succeed you succeed.

  2. I’ll address your 1,2,3 points…

    1. I want to make sure, we’re talking politics here, not social engineering.. Your God has nothing to do with my God, but once you step back and examine a lot of your beliefs, it’s extremely hard to stay neutral when applying it in governmental laws, and that’s where I say it has no place. Again I come back to the first amendment, freedom of religion, as long as it’s not harming another citizen… Remember my simple argument of pursuit of happiness, as long as you’re not trampling another individuals pursuit? 🙂

    2. This is aimed at “environmental whackos,” and this is obviously against any libertarian beliefs I hold. Mother Nature is a grown woman, she can clean up after herself 🙂

    3a. Back to my simple argument, pursuit of happiness, as long as you’re not hindering someone else’s… the government should supply protection from other nation’s who try to infringe on *our citizens*, but I don’t see any need for policing the world, or having our military stationed in something like 77 countries around the world, costing over $1 Trillion a year, and I’m talking about our peacetime troops, outside of current war zones.

    3b. Other’s running around with nukes, well the only reason they want them, is other people have them.. Our dealing with this subject should be on the protection of our citizens and land, and we have the technology to do this, but I don’t see how it’s our business in telling others what they can or can’t do.. it only enrages them further..

    3c. Should put people in jail, yes, but it should only be in the enforcement of the simple statement about the pursuit… we’ve jammed our prison system with non-violent offenders and drug addicts, and basically made a business out of housing people who were destroying their own lives. Killing the killers… I think this is rooted in your religious beliefs, eye for an eye, I do not subscribe to this. I consider it along the lines of abortion, I haven’t had someone kill someone close to me, but as with abortion, does that life have no value?

    3d. Yeah, the government should be involved in infrastructure… Water, sewers, roads, fire department, police… beyond that, we’ve traded the wealth of the few to supply the happiness of others, again I stress, the government is the referee, their responsibility is allowing the pursuit of happiness while playing referee, but not tilting the playing field for anyone, for any cause.

    Any libertarian says abolish the IRS, Fed, etc.. but none have really supplied a plan to make it happen, and even more importantly, a plan that would be electable in the current political climate.. remember, we’re not crazy mountain men who are just cynical of the government stockpiling our weapons, we’re reasonable people trying to form an argument so people can understand and possibly accept the idea and imagine a world without these things, and I just think the argument is posed all wrong.

    Here’s an idea for the IRS.. I’m for a flat tax style system.. This 66,000 page tax code is a disgrace, and of course the time spent on doing them, and of course the enforcement and processing by our government… Abolishing the IRS will never happen, unless you have something for those government employees to do–like the GM bailouts, politicians just didn’t want a lot of people with their hands in their pockets with nothing better to do than watch what the politicians were doing, and how they screwed it up, so they bail those companies out–but this also disallows drastic actions if a libertarian would actually be elected to a position to make these actions possible.

    Pose the argument this way, the IRS employs 115,000 people who average two years of college completed already. Say we take $10B of the stimulus package and use that for abolishing the IRS, pay for their education for completing college to become teachers or doctors, two sectors that are failing massively. The IRS is a horrible misallocation of valuable resources, these are college educated individuals who are spending their working lives doing paperwork that isn’t needed.

    You can apply that prior argument to any government entity you look to abolish at this point in time, and you could probably get away with it if you were pushing those resources towards our “Healthcare Crisis” or our “Educational Crisis”, something most americans agree on.. that’s the starting point.

    I’m kind of morphing the argument here, but it’s one thing to say “I’m a libertarian.” It’s an entirely other thing to say, “I’m a realistic libertarian, it’s not happening overnight, but here’s a possible first step”.. We’re pretty much of similar minds… but I again stress the stigma that comes, whenever you identify yourself as a conservative… you attach yourself to a bunch of religious motivated causes, that can easily be argued as government control, which is not what libertarians are about…

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